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RE: Hand Recounts of votes recorded on DREs

Actually, there have been questions about whether each DRE tabulated the votes properly and whether the election management system properly added up the totals of the votes for each DRE. These are properly within the realm of a hand count. While the claimed absurdity of a hand count for a DRE is an argument for an AVVPAT for each DRE, the notion that DRE's without AVVPAT's should be subject to audit (with their multiple memories and records of the vote) is still quite reasonable. Doing a hand audit of those records as a form of hand tabulation of the votes is not "patently absurd, meaningless, and futile." We have the opportunity to apply meaning and reason to the legislative intent of a hand recount. And I believe we should do so.

The Supreme Court ruling in Bush v. Gore in 2000 indicated that such rules must be applied uniformly. You can't have a hand recount for only some of the votes. That there is no independent record for DREs of voter intent does not remove a reason for hand recounting. Hand recounts can also handle problems to tabulation software inside and outside each DRE.

Best regards,
Arthur

At 5:43 PM -0700 12/5/04, Pete Klammer wrote: 
A "hand recount" of paperless DRE votes is patently absurd, meaningless, and
futile.

Yes, you may be able to cause the DREs to make some post-election printouts
which might then be counted by hand; but this misses the point of recounting
entirely.

Among very many other things, a hand count is an opportunity for fresh human
interpretation of voters' intents.  That would only be available from a DRE
which could record and replay a movie-like video record of all presses and
touches and taps during a voting session -- it would look like a shadow play
of silhouettes: grape-sized finger and thumb presses, thin crescents of
fingernails, jangly criss-crosses of jewelry and charm bracelets, and big
egg-sized shadows of heels or palms of possibly both hands.  But I know of
no touch-screen technology capable even of sensing such a full-face record.

Legislatures have also ruled that PI is exactly 3-1/7 and other idiocies, so
just because some state has a statute describing or requiring a "hand
recount of DRE votes" doesn't make it the least bit less oxymoronic.

--
Pete Klammer, P.E. / ACM(1970), IEEE(SA,P1583), ICCP(CCP), NSPE(PE)
   3200 Routt Street / Wheat Ridge, Colorado 80033-5452
 (303)233-9485 / Fax:(303)274-6182 / Mailto:PKlammer@xxxxxxx
   "Either Be Good, or Else Be Careful, but Do Have Fun! "


 -----Original Message-----
 From: owner-stds-1583-tg1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 [mailto:owner-stds-1583-tg1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
 Arthur Keller
 Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 4:35 PM
 To: stds-1583-stg3@xxxxxxxx; stds-1583-disc@xxxxxxxx;
 stds-1583-tg1@xxxxxxxx; stds-1583-tg2@xxxxxxxx
 Subject: Hand Recounts of votes recorded on DREs

 Currently, Washington State is engaged in a hand recount in the race
 for governor.  Some of the counties in Washington State use DREs.
 What specifications are there in the IEEE P1583 drafts for a standard
 for extracting Cast Vote Records from each of the individual DREs,
 including obtaining each of the various copies of each Cast Vote
 Record on each of the DREs, in the absence of an AVVPAT for each DRE?
 What support is there for auditing DREs in the absence of an AVVPAT
 for each DRE?  It seems to me that there should be a requirement for
 being able to extract all of the Cast Vote Records from each of the
 DREs, including the various copies of each of these CVRs, in order to
 support hand recounts.

Thanks.

Arthur

 --
 --------------------------------------------------------------
 -----------------
 Arthur M. Keller,  Visiting Associate Professor, Computer
 Science Dept.
 University of California, Baskin School of Engineering, Room 153B,
> 1156 High Street, Santa Cruz, CA 95066-1077
tel +1(831)459-1485, fax +1(831)459-4829, www.soe.ucsc.edu/~ark



--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arthur M. Keller,  Visiting Associate Professor, Computer Science Dept.
University of California, Baskin School of Engineering, Room 153B,
1156 High Street, Santa Cruz, CA  95066-1077
tel +1(831)459-1485, fax +1(831)459-4829, www.soe.ucsc.edu/~ark